Feminist are adopting the Hijab as a symbol for women's rights, what an oxymoron.

Feminist are adopting the Hijab as a symbol for women's rights, what an oxymoron.

To assume a woman's hijab was forced without asking her is to presume she views Western styles as ideal, Mogahed said.

Ok. Can you take it off without repercussion from your family and social circle?

Sure, these women can, because they're not Muslim and they live in a Western, secular society, but yeah, try that as a Muslim woman in say Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, any gulf state, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, etc, etc.

I also take issue with the idea of promoting modesty as a morally superior position, which is the entire purpose of the hijab. Essentially, the very nature of the hijab is sex shaming both men and women.

To assume a woman's hijab was forced without asking her is to presume she views Western styles as ideal, Mogahed said.

Well I mean, you're not wrong to say that they're probably not forced, but then again "wear this or be stoned to death" is barely freedom of choice.

I came here to say that EXACT same thing. Its cute when your doing this in 'solidarity' wit yo sistas here in the secular western states, but go out to the real world and watch what happens when you test the waters out there in the muslim world.

I get what they're trying to accomplish, its a good effort but honestly, its just poor judgement.

When a Muslim woman is free to NOT wear the hijab (sans fear of beating, torture, rape, imprisonment, or death), then she's free to choose to wear it.

They are still conditioned to wear it from birth, with the threat of hell and punishment. You can take the legal enforcement away, but these women are still in a prison of belief and fear.

Most Muslim majority nations don't go nearly that far, but they are pressured by society's standards through peer pressure, including up to harassment to wear one in most nations where Islam is the predominant religion.

"The way you look at it from a religious perspective, it empowers you by strengthening your relationship with God. It’s a step you are taking to further yourself within your own religion.”

Its a shame she cant see that the religion itself is what is oppressing her. Its a typical abusive relationship, "wear what I tell you and I will look upon you with more respect, maybe even love you."

“No one forced me to dress this way," she added.

No, you willingly subjected yourself to an ancient set of rules and justify it by saying your abuser says its the right thing to do.

This is a symbol that needs a re-think. The hijab already has a meaning, something about supporting the more conservative strains of Islam I think. Why don't they make a new symbol that means I support freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Maybe thats not what they suport....

One could even say that they're culturally appropriate the hijab..

I agree that is a really good point. Also modest clothing itself doesn't mean anything, a woman can still be promiscuous even wearing a potato sack.

Especially when wearing a potato sack.

A a militant atheist feminist....you'd have to pin it to my dead body before you see me wearing your allah rags

Which isn't just restricted to Islam either. Women of various more conservative Christian denominations are conditioned to dress a certain way - namely with ankle length skirts/dresses, not cutting their hair, and sometimes covering their hair with bonnets/snoods. Mennonites, Amish, and that wacka-doo evangelical movement the Duggars are part of are among them.

They're not usually beaten or executed, but they are conditioned from birth, and threatened with becoming a social pariah in their own communities, and shunned and abandoned by their families.

As religion gets more moderate, more people are free to shape their religious belief (or lackthereof) based on their preferences and not of the society at large. It's completely fair to criticize societies that force women to wear a hijab, just like it's completely fair to criticize societies that force women to not wear a hijab. If it's not hurting anyone, how about everyone leaves each other alone to live their own lives and stop controlling their bodies?

In Latvia we have no promiscuous women in potato sack. Only potato.

You present this a free choice made by an independent individual.

What troubles some people is that to "freely choose" this requires an underlying acultutration which teaches women need this to be modest. Which to some people really looks a lot like internalized misogyny.

Individual Muslims may or may not agree. But it sure looks that way to someone who believes in gender equality.

YES! I'm done with regressive feminism pandering to religion. This religious sex-shaming doctrine is bullshit.

"But it is all about protecting women from male lust!" Why, that benevolent sexism is just so sweet, isn't it?

Not to mention I see young women showing thong and nice bosom while wearing the modesty garment. For me, it's either bullshit attempt at piety, or a slap in the face to the historical reality than in muslim majority nations, there is at least a pressure to wear it, or sometimes even a legal compulsion to wear it.

To say that a symbol of women's oppression all around the world is suddenly a symbol for feminism in the west boggles the mind.

We don't pressure a woman not to wear if for the same reason. We dislike it because the symbol. We don't support the subjugation of women. It would be like if German Americans started wearing WWII styles, and possibly even swastikas, and make the argument, "we feel pressure not to wear these things, and so we feel it's liberating to wear them".

True but not to forget the hijab is a symbol and symbols have meaning. It's a spit in the face of all Islamic women in Muslim countries that force women to cover up either by law or social pressure.

You're welcome to make up your argument that the Confederate flag is a symbol of individual liberty, but don't expect us to believe that for all the rednecks going to klan meetings.

"If she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have worn short-shorts, she was asking for it with that slutty outfit!"

Is a expression that is always used to blame the victim, doesn't matter if it is a hijab or a fucking bikini, fuck it, fuck the peer preasure and fuck the asshole people who do put that pressure on them. That's why we should fight against it

... I support freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Maybe thats not what they suport....

You've answered yourself. Freedom of religion is incompatible with this faith which literally translates to 'Submission' (not 'Peace' as the apologists claim it to be). Submission to the Will of Allah, failing which, you'll be,

a) told, "Unto you, your religion and unto me, mine", when Islam is a minority.

b) demanded to accept Islam or die. But it's all ok if you're People of the Book though. You'll just have to pay a tax to live.

And that is messed up too. But you are allowed to criticize it, that is the difference.

The argument that pressure to not wear a Hijab against the woman's "choice" is akin to the pressure to wear a Hijab is so infuriatingly disingenuous.

Women have "chosen" to get their daughter's genitals mutilated. Women have "chosen" to get theirs and their daughters feet bound. Women have "chosen" to stay with abusive husbands.

Feminism is more than just earning the right to choose, its critically analyzing how sexism influences our choices that we supposedly make with our own free will.

IMO a woman can choose to wear the hijab, but its not sexist of me to explore how the context and history of the hijab is rooted in sexism.

These women are idiots. Pure and simple. Islam is a HORRIBLE religion and is incredibly hateful toward women. As Sam Harris says, Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.

Only it's the same people that are doing this that would say that lol

Do you consider Judaism and Christianity to be incompatible with modern western values as well?

Yes. I don't think any non-religious person who has read the Bible cover-to-cover could reasonably say that they aren't incompatible.

Can you call your choices "free choices" when you are told from childhood that not doing something is wrong?

Yes, that was the insinuation

I would disagree that its a good effort. I would say its downright patronizing. They're trying to find common ground with people who are being victimized by downplaying the opression... If they acknowledged that as some sort of 'shared burden', it would be one thing.... But that isn't it at all. They're trying to brainwash themselves into thinking its a thing to take pride in. The women who don't have a choice in the matter(Id guess a sizable chunk of the ~800 million female mulsims) probably dont appreciate a bunch of a ignorant spoiled westerners turning their burden of oppression into some chic political statement.

Its troubling because a lot of the same people who are doing this retcon on the hijab, are also the ones who scream about cultural appropriation. At least when people dress up in native american head dresses, or dashikis, they're not glorifying acts of oppression.

People should be able to wear whatever they like, but be aware of the cultural significance.

They can't accept the fact that their culture has a side to it that is morally bankrupt. Just fix it and move on, why does it always have to be a battle of the cultures. A cultural norm can suck on its own.

try that as a Muslim woman in say Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, any gulf state, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, etc, etc.

You forgot Indian muslims.

A neighbor of mine(in India) did not let his sister take her Hijab off.

I think that's right, it does seem like appropriation. Wearing the hijab as a fashionable thing while Muslim cultures have it as a part of their oppression. Doesn't seem very different from other types of appropriation.

These foolish women are promoting misogyny against Muslim women.

Every religion is stupid and/or barbaric.

I can't stand this argument. Fine, maybe all religions are bad. But why do we have to bring this up every time someone talks about Islam? I don't like the other religions either, but it doesn't help to try to deflect the conversation to something bad that Christians do.

Every single time I talk about Islam I'm bombarded with "WHAT ABOUT THE CHRISTIANS??!?!?!?" Like okay, there's problems there too but that's not what we're talking about right now.

There are many issues that are unique to Islam, and it doesn't help us to take Islams problems and blanket them over all other religions. I think we need to address these things specifically rather than just saying "fuck all religion."

There are other countries where it is, in fact, illegal to criticize Islam exclusively. There is not a country in the world, not even the Vatican or Isreal, where it is illegal to criticize Christianity or Judaism. You're expected to be "respectful", but state-sponsored murder for badmouthing a religion is usually kept to Cults of State (in example of North Korea), or the third of the Abrahamic religions.

If the ideals in question are "western" and "middle eastern"....I'm sorry for being culturally intolerant but western is far superior for women in every way unless you're a rich middle eastern girl with a non abusive husband with a fetish for buying you things

i am conflicted about the hijab, on one hand i see it as a symbol of religious oppression... however, if a woman chooses to wear it on her own volition, that is her right and asking her to stop is oppressive.

Nor do they spend THAT much time trying to convert and spreading their shit around.

I like it. Sort of similar to how the most recognized symbol of Christianity is a wearable sculpture of torture, or how Islam jacked the Crescent and Star from the Ottomans who stole it from the Byzantines.

"This is ours now."

Good luck, ladies.

In a stable, secular, and highly-educated society, it's far easier to become more moderate and nuanced in your views, which leads to making free choices as an independent individual. This applies equally to Muslims as it does to literally everyone else, which gives them the opportunity to shape their version of Islam however they want in the same way Christianity does. They're going to be criticized by hardliners and told they're not true Muslims, but it's not like that's never happened before with other religions.

The problem is theocratic governments, societies, and organizations, which (more often than not) rely on literal interpretations that force their particular religion down everyone's throats without respect to nuance, suppress/control education so that it makes people easier to control, and uses instability (like, say, famine/drought or constant warfare) as a way to radicalize people and get them to do things they otherwise would never do. That's what makes the West so scary to terrorist organizations: all that goddamn freedom and moderation gets in the way of their holy wars.

If you want to go after the extremes and the radicals and the theocrats, I'm with you 100%. If you want to help people transition away from religion into atheism, I'm with you 100%. If you want to get in the way of people making their religion more moderate and nuanced, including the changing of a symbol of oppression into a symbol of freedom, I can't support that.

Do you consider Judaism and Christianity to be incompatible with modern western values as well?

Considering the bible is pretty clear on adultery and a number of other things and the extreme punishment for them.. “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death”.  (Leviticus 20:10)

Having sex if your dad is a clergyman. “A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.”  (Leviticus 21:9)

Lying about your virginity. “But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.” (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Being a witch. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” (Exodus 22:18) While the definition of “witch” in Biblical times is a bit murky, if the Salem Witch Trials are any indication, then this passage basically refers to any independent-minded woman who refuses to submit to a man.

Being an enemy of Israel. “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16) There are tons of Bible passages that advocate mass genocide of the various enemies of Israel, and the women of those nations in particular. It was kind of hard to just pick one for this example.

Having sex with your husband’s son. “If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” (Leviticus 20:20)

Sharing a husband with your mother or daughter. “If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.” (Leviticus 20:14)

Incest. “And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:12)

Being psychic. “A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.” (Leviticus 20:27)

Getting raped while engaged. “If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die.” (Deuteronomy 22:25) It’s cool though, because if you’re not engaged when you get raped, you just have to marry your rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28).

Getting raped and not screaming loud enough. “If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

Not being a virgin on your wedding night. “If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her … and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate…. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”(Deuteronomy 22:13-22)

Having sex while menstruating.“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”(Leviticus 20-18) Exile was basically a death sentence to the ancient Israelites, who depended on their cooperative desert communities for all aspects of food and shelter.

I bartend and there was a group of Islamic men that came in frequently. Their cousin, a female, also frequented my place. They saw her on occasion, and at some point told her she was "disrespecting Allah" by not covering properly and being too "American." Evidently they dragged her out of bed one night, and beat her ass for not covering properly. She has since returned but only after we banned the other group. This is the culture that these asshole feminists are unintentionally respecting by choosing to stick themselves in cloth sacs instead of letting the men shove them in there.

While I agree with people being able to wear what they want, this whole mentality of "I'm doing well in the West because me and my family are hypocrites who only pick the nice parts of the religion, so this issue doesn't exist anywhere" is beyond ridiculous.

Well that's what we got Mia Khalifa for

Do you consider Judaism and Christianity to be incompatible with modern western values as well?

Hasidim in Brooklyn certainly seem to think so. The same is true of most, if not all, Orthodox sects.

Most hardline conservative Christians also seem to think so, as western values are "intolerably" too liberal for them. Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists take steps to separate themselves from Western culture, as do several other small Christian sects and denominations.

I think you may have wasted some time on this post.

I think they pour acid on women that remove them in some countries. Never seen any woman get acid poured on her for not wearing a bikini.

True, but the Amish and Mennonites communities arent, you know, the size of Iran.

Exactly...as an exmuslim I can honestly tell you that muslim woman misrepresent this freedom. SOME families in the west are liberal and people domt stress about it. But that even changes with time. My parents used to be anal about my sisters wearing it when going out. Now theyre a bit lax but thats because my family as a whole is a lot less religious. Woman supposedly get attacked by jinn if they dont wear scarfs so how exaxtly is that a choice when there are believable threats (from their perspective). The muslim qomen that ignore it ARE breaking islamic rules. I say jave some goddamn integrity. If you cant follow a religion as it is then dont. Dont edit it to suit your interpretation and then call jt Islam. Realistically though it'll eventually die oit in western cointries. Second gen immigrants dont cling as tightly to actial islam fortunately

this requires an underlying acultutration which teaches women need this to be modest

This could be said of many non-Muslim cultures though, right? Most American women aren't comfortable with being topless in public, even in situations where it would be okay for men. For that matter, many American men aren't thrilled at the idea of going around shirtless. That's driven by acculturated senses of modesty and/or shame of the bare human body. It seems a little hypocritical to say that our culture's standards of modesty are just fine, but your culture's standards of modesty are oppressive and misogynistic.

Yes. I don't think any non-religious person who has read the Bible cover-to-cover could reasonably say that they aren't incompatible.


This is one of those times when we should probably not speak about "feminists" as if they are a homogenous group.

It also annoys me what most of these women say about men when defending the hijab. Things like "this protects me from the male gaze" because apparently a man so much as looking at you will somehow corrupt your virtue.

I think the idea is anyone who doesn't wear one is putting out a flag that she is immodest and open to sexual assault. It is also to show that the woman is property.

But keep wearing it for "solidarity".

I'm fifty six. I cannot for the life of me understand why so many women younger than me hold dear ideals and acts that not only harm women, but keep the entire society from advancing. These crazy ass so-called feminists are not helping women. They are simply enjoying being in the limelight for a time. Note how they only wear the hijab. Why not show more solidarity and don a burqa or undergo a clitordectomy. s/

hey, be thankful my friend, at least you have potato in sack. Some family have no potato to put in their sack

in Lituania no sack, no potato, no women.

Oh you again with the same argument.

Yes, I can do so without fear of being murdered by people I know.

Belarus: only sack

The whole point of the hijab is to make women invisible.

Wearing a hijab in the US in an attempt to be invisible is like wearing jungle camouflage in Antarctica.

The whole point of the hijab is to make women invisible. It's so that men don't notice them, because if they do, they will be overcome by lust. So the woman has to hide herself lest she corrupt men. A "true feminist" understands that by wearing the hijab, you are sending the signal that it is ok to treat women differently, and to make them responsible for the actions of others. It is not a matter of fashion choice, like wearing a cardigan instead of a blazer. It is a symbol of oppression.

If women wear it ,outside of countries that are forced, as a means to show that they can choose what they want, its not going to prove a thing to those men in countries where women are forced. The men will see it as women obeying Islamic law.

Clearly you weren't around in the wild 60s and 70s if you think women weren't given acid if they weren't scantily-clad enough. /s

I could care less what people wear, but it's being either dishonest or ignorant to say women wearing the veil face no social pressures or brainwashing to do so.

The argument Islamic apologists make is a what about western beauty standards being forced on Western women. Which is a caricature of the west. There are certainly more options nthat dressing in a bee keeper suit and being a whore.

Does it really matter if men shout at women to take their hijab off because it represents oppression, or if they shout at them to put it on because they're being immodest? Either way, women are unfree to do as they wish.

If a woman wears a hijab, why not just take two seconds to ask her about it, and why she made that choice? Or, even better still, just move on with your life and accept that other people wear different clothes without bothering her at all. It's really not that hard.

As for protests, you can protest religious oppression by taking your hijab off, or protest western male xenophobia by putting one on. The one constant is that, for some reason, the hijab itself is apparently offensive to people for literally no reason, no matter what it really represents.

Only white males can culturally appropriate things.

Or the other way around: You can dress revealing, and be completely monogamous.


The hijab is totally a feminist thing. They should also start promoting feminism by not holding jobs, not voting, getting married when they are 15, having lots of babies, doing whatever their husband tells them to do, and accepting regular beatings as a statement of strength.

I think this is a form of feminism that could really catch on in the Arab world.

While I wouldn't choose to wear a head covering I believe that a woman should be able to wear whatever the fuck she wants to wear. That is the idea. If you are a true feminist (not a geriatric separatist feminist) you believe there should be no discrimination for gender (including not discriminating against men in divorce/custody cases) race, religion, sexual orientation, political identity or anything that makes a person different from you. The oxymoron is that whoever posted this thinks that feminism discriminates against women in hijab. Fuck you whoever you are. You don't get it.

"Don't wear this because it's against our vision of the woman" isn't either. I guess that's their point.

Not surprising. Regardless of how you feel about the hijab, this just goes to show that trying to shame people for how they dress is not going to motivate them to change.

I lived in a Gulf state (UAE). Often had lunch with Emirati women some of whom would wear Hijab others who wouldn't.

Same in Oman I think. And Jordan.

that is a lame argument. And yes. We can. You can walk around topless in some US states and even more so in other countries. But the hijab is a symbol of the opposite of what they think. Countries in the middle east are Forcing them to wear them with not only laws but also can get stoned or gang raped for things like that. It's not a CHOICE there. If a women walks around topless in the US, she can get fined, locked up or nothing depending on where but never stoned or publicly gang raped. A woman can walk around in a swimsuit or topless here. Try that in the middle east then let me know how that works.

I think the word is irony

So like... every other time?

Also, isn't it kind of immodest to assume that you are being modest by not showing your body? For example, if I have a Ferrari but I choose to drive a Fiat Punto most days because I don't like showing off, that's being modest. To be modest requires hiding something of value... and of course, Ferrari's have a definite high value so theres no paradox there. But by saying "oh yeh, I'm hiding my body to be modest", that's suggesting that you view your body as being something reallllly great, so great that it would be immodest to show it. Which in itself is an immodest assumption. So it's paradoxical.

What's wrong with being immodest anyway?

EDIT: couple of typos, i'm v tired.

Every religion is stupid and/or barbaric. Concentrating on a single religion only encourages more stupidity from every side.

In this scenario, there is the extreme right wing in America that is publicly bigoted against muslims which causes these liberal women to defend muslims by wearing what is commonly known as a symbol of abuse.

It's just stupid overreacting and stupidity from all sides.

Well "etc" was for all those additional areas I didn't specifically cover as the list would be quite long.

Western feminists. Feminists in Islamic countries are doing the exact opposite.

If its in the USA, you can criticize it no matter what - though of course criticizing Christianity is obviously going to result in more backlash because most people are christians

I agree with you to an extent, but the issue with saying you are bigoted against a religion is to say that they are all equal. We can prove that not all religions are equal, if we are to compare Quakers who believe in non-violence as the center of their ideology, and Heaven's Gate, a cult whose members committed mass suicide.

It is more than fair to attack Islam as a doctrine, and in the modern context of Muslim terror attacks, it is important to accept the fact that at least in that very same modern context it has a much higher chance of radicalization than any other major religion.

It's like a Jew getting a swastika tattooed on their arm in the name of Judaism.

Doesn't make any fucking sense.

The best part is they then teach their daughters to cover up for the same reasons. You know, to protect them from "the male gaze". Surely that won't mess them up.

Finally someone gets it. Islam tells women that their bodies are shameful, sinful, and must be covered up; that's why they wear the hijab.

The concept of modesty (like virginity) is a cancerous concept that needs to be done away with ASAP.

Jews have a process where they're obligated to reject you repeatedly, to prove you're serious if you want to be a Jew. Then a Rabbi might let you in (depends on how fundamentalist). This is incompatible with proselytizing, so they don't.

They do not really want converts from proselytizing, its seen a "fickle". Kind of a "do we even want the person that was convinced by a door knocker or a pamphlet?" deal.

Ask and demand on pain of death are different things from the same flawed thought process

No all religions are the same when it comes to impact on society and the world, some are worse than others. No one worries about the Jains or the Quakers, but when one religion basically corners the market on terrorism, it is fine to call them out on it.

My family is from Pakistan and when I visit I see plenty of women dressed in western clothing and not wearing hijabs. My aunts and cousins only really wear them to formal gatherings, and often take them off while there. My sister never wears a hijab, even when over there, and she hasn't been stoned to death yet.

Oh are you not allowed to criticize Islam? You had better tell this entire thread and all of Reddit and about half of the country!

That's why I have a lot of respect for those communities. Add Judaism in there too. All three generally keep to themselves, I've never had a Jewish person try to convert me, or even really seen it.

Didn't mean to be rude.

India normally gets the benefit of the doubt in communal matters.

I wanted to point it out!

and that's just fine. feminism is about agency.

So I dated a Muslim woman recently who was also a feminist, and she had an American friend who voluntarily wore a Hijab (also a Muslim) which I found pretty interesting.

The idea behind it was that while women in many Western cultures are valued strictly for their appearance, the Hijab allowed her to be taken purely on an intellectual and emotional level, and valued as a person, rather than a physically attractive object.

I thought that was definitely something to think about, and I cannot fathom that she is doing it out of disrespect. Anyway, just something to think about.

Yeah I get the idea of it "bringing a women closer to God" in the context of their religion but in the context of real life it's ridiculous. I actually like hijabs from a fashion standpoint but as long as a single person is coerced into wearing one on religious pretenses I won't be okay with it.

Well these women in the article are American, and no where here do we force women not to wear a hijab under any normal circumstances. These women are welcome to wear them and we are welcome to criticize their hypocrisy.

It's not meant to do that though? I'm not one for wearing the hijab but I do understand the reason why some feminists are choosing to atm. It's about making a statement to the people around them that regardless of our (western society) opinions about the hijab, women shouldn't be attacked for choosing to wear one. Laws shouldn't be written banning it and women shouldn't be harassed by strangers for wearing one.

Now I don't happen to think wearing a hijab is a good way to make these arguments. I think the whole notion of the hijab is a bad idea and wouldn't want to do anything that suggested I thought otherwise. I also happen to think that any feminist who belongs to an abrahamic religion is being a little hypocritical. HOWEVER, I do support the basic underlying principles that these feminists are arguing for. Regardless of my opinion, women should be able to choose what they wear, shouldn't be harassed for those choices, and shouldn't have the government stepping in to tell them they can't wear what they want.

That's your interpretation. The hijab is just as much cultural as it is religious. In an age of Trump, where you have "Travel" (i.e. Muslim) bans, wearing a hijab can be a sign of unity for Muslim women. It can be a sign of resistance to Islamaphobia by making yourself visible as a Muslim to the community. Wearing a hijab may be mandatory in Muslim nations, but this article is talking about America and American protests. I think simply labeling it as a "symbol of oppression" and nothing more is intellectually lazy and lacks any sort of nuance.

why not just take two seconds to ask her about it

Why would someone likely raised in an authoritarian environment be inclined to speak their mind and confide in a stranger? Time normalizes even the craziest rituals. Nowadays many women would be free to make the choice to wear it or not, but the tradition is 100% a product of archaic, misogynistic ideas.

I truly don't understand this way of thinking. We know for a fact that Islam is not progressive and has very little wiggle room for liberal ideas. We can all understand this on a grand scale, yet there is a surprising amount of mental gymnastics taking place by westerners who have this misplaced notion of "self-expression" in the Muslim world. The hijab was never about empowerment any more than slavery was "indentured servitude"; it is a symbol of oppression.

The muslim qomen that ignore it ARE breaking islamic rules. I say jave some goddamn integrity. If you cant follow a religion as it is then dont. Dont edit it to suit your interpretation and then call it Islam

Except that's exactly what liberal secular Muslims should be doing right now. We should encourage modern Muslims (especially women) to leave behind the regressive aspects of Islam while still embracing the redeeming aspects. It's what virtually all other major religions have done. As a Hindu from a Muslim country, who has grown up with and around Muslims, I'd much rather have Islam become more like Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism than have it die out entirely.

How on earth is it cultural and not religious? It's a religious garment. Non-observant Muslims don't wear it. Its origin is in religious texts. It's purpose is religious, to keep men's hearts pure and sin-free. And the countries it comes from have zero separation of church and state, so everything is religious.

Fairly sure all (atleast all mainstream religion) asks their adherents to submit to the will of their respective God's.

No one is denying their right to do this, and no one here is wanting to take that away, but we will call out the absurdity of the "statement" they are making.

it seems that people only cared about covering up women's body for modesty reasons though, is there any context they can justify covering up with other than that ? Plus you won't find real attempts by Muslims to give the hijab other meanings, Muslims throughout the world understand the purpose of the hijab, why it there and what it implies, that's why you find them rage whenever a hijabi caught dancing or twerking while turning a blind eye to non-hijabi muslim women who engage in unethically and inappropriate acts according to them personally i've nothing against Muslim who want to interpret their religion in a moderate ways, but i believe that should include changing their views towards female's body and sexuality as well

This. 1,000 times! Spot on!

I always thought the hijab was first invented as an insult to men? Like "You idiots can't keep it in your pants for two seconds so I guess the responsible gender is gonna have to cover up". It's like a flag that men use to show how weak they are.

Please find me someone who actually argues this point instead of building a very easy to defeat strawman

Misogyny is only bad if you're white apparently.

Except wouldn't calling a woman a whore for wearing revealing attire but not actually taking money for sex fall into the category of forcing woman to wear particular outfits through social pressure and brainwashing?

I'm not defending the hijab, nor saying pressuring woman to do so is okay, but I feel like there is a lack of self reflection in your post as well.

That's one of the key elements of the oppressive use of the hijab: to control the bodies of women and intentionally place them lower on the social ladder (in this case, by controlling their sexuality through forced modesty). That's why disentangling the hijab from oppression is very symbolic: it says that you can have agency and bodily autonomy without abandoning your faith. It's a pretty big step towards modernization since it brings women closer to being in control of themselves, as well as sharing control of their societies and their religious beliefs.

If you're a Muslim dude who gets off on oppressing Muslim women and is used to being in control, this is probably absolutely terrifying, so I'm not surprised that they'd be against it. They should probably go fuck themselves.

This is why I hate labelling myself, anytime I say I'm feminist or liberal they always group me with these people. That's why I use equalist and democratic socialist now but still it doesn't speak for all my ideals.

Maybe they will also have their labia and clits hacked off with a rusty blade to show how "feminist" the practice is. While they are at it, they can can partake of the Muslim "feminist" ritual of getting beat by their fathers, brothers or husbands in a show of solidarity for the liberating experience that women in Islamic theocracies endure because I doubt they love it so much in the real world.

Or, perhaps they can read the history of how head scarves of whatever kind weren't always required for women to wear, and that it was patriarchal Islamic extremists that made the practice law. Feminists unwittingly supporting patriarchy, that's hilarious.


if you want to understand why there is so much fuss about the hijab. listen to this guy, he is a former Islamist, and has campaigned himself for it.

I am agnostic but it's really unfair for you to quote Leviticus and Deuteronomy to make your point.

I would consider Judaism incompatible if with western values which includes Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

But most™ Christians don't follow those two books you quote. Those are old testament, so those are still important topics for Christiantiy. But Jesus died and hence Christians don't need to follow the teachings in the old testament.

That's not to say the new testament doesn't have anything backwards in it. But it's pretty disingenuous to use quotes from part of the bible that most™ Christians don't follow anymore.

Oppression means the taking away of someone’s power, their agency. Yet a woman in a hijab is only covering her body and hair, not her voice or intellect,"

the problem is why they have to cover it, In Islam as well as in majority of Muslim countries, they have to cover it so they don't tempt men, to assume that the female body is nothing but a sexually irritating object, and that's it's up to them not to tempt men not for men to control themselves, is problematic to say the least

"And a man dressed in a full robe and head cover, like many do in the Middle East, is not said to be oppressed.

because men aren't covering for that exact same reason